Help for beginners

Discussion of history's greatest guitar player.

Re: Help for beginners

Postby Roger Hardin » Sat Sep 11, 2010 11:25 pm

Norm

I enjoy all of your post post and insights. I just felt I was being unfairly profiled on that one. I really use to get aggravated being around some within the Classical guitar community and that attitude some would have. I remember one of those guys telling me that Chet was not a "real" guitarist one time. I few months later this guy had scanned copies of of some of the music from John Knowles book "Chet Atkins goes to the Movies." He said "they were some clever arrangements he could use at his gigs. I have read some second hand sources about some of the things Segovia said about Chet and don't know if they were true or not but I have never had any respect for Segovia for that reason (I am sure that is unfair). I do have a lot of admiration for many classical guitarist particularly Julian Bream.

I didn't mean to imply that anchoring, planting or lightly touching the pickguard is a bad thing. Sometimes If I start holding my thumbpick like a straight pick I actually will plant my pinkie as well. I just cannot do it If I am fingerpicking. Whatever Chet did It really worked well for him.
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Re: Help for beginners

Postby tyguy » Sun Sep 12, 2010 12:24 am

tyguy wrote:
Randy Finney wrote:I do not overly disagree with anything you are saying, Ty. I don't really understand how it comments on what I was saying about Bass Notes for a Strong Resolution Cadence.

Allow me to reattempt an explanation...

Consider a II, V, I in A - Bmi7, E7, A

An all Roots Bass Line would obviously be B, E, A.

Here's the thing - the Bmi7 (the II Chord of the II, V, I) is optional. And it is almost always optional. The chord can just be E7, however, the Bass Line would remain B, E, A.

This is not a re-harmonization of a II, V, I. In fact, it is the other way around. The II, V, I is a "re-harmonization" - an elaboration, really - based on modern harmonic thinking, of the Strong Resolution Bass Notes I am referring to. (This is light of the fact that this concept is 100's of years older than the modern II, V, I way of thinking.) The F#/Bb(A#) to E/B is exactly how it's done by Chet or anybody else.That's a half step my boy.The correct trasnsition for a 3rd in the bass chord as stated before.Chet knew that and could hear it(a half step up or down).If Chet had went to the E bass it would sound funny.By the way He could have held the A#(Bb)as a Bb7 has the same tritone(D and G#)as an E7 chord.Ain't life grand?

To further illustrate my point, the first 4 Bars of Irving Berlin's "Cheek To Cheek" is a I, VI, II, V played twice.

When Chet plays this tune, he plays a Root as the Bass Note on the I Chord (AMA7/A). Way to go, Chet!

For the VI Chord, he plays VI7b9 - which as I am sure you know, but others reading may not, that this is a common substitution for VImi7. He plays a 3rd as the Bass Note (F#7b9/A#). Nothing worthy of discussion regarding this. (And yes, I am aware that some people like to think of this as a diminished 7 passing chord.)

Then, and here's the beef, Chet leaves out the II Chord and just plays the V Chord instead. However, he keeps the Bass Line as if - in modern harmonic thinking - the II Chord was still there. Therefore, he plays E7/B on beat 1, E7/E on beat 3 to lead back to the I Chord, AMA7. In essence, "de-evolving" the progression from the modern II, V, I way of thinking.

It is a very common thing to do with this tune - and many others. Chet may have done this to make the tune sound more periodic but, I am pretty sure he did it because he must have known I would one day need it as an example to make this point concerning Bass Lines on a discussion board dedicated to his honor. ;) Thanks, Chet.

Randy
P.S. I am glad you did well at school.
P.S.S. I promise to keep working on my ear training.
I give up,but if you play a B bass on a E7 chord it's not an E7 chord anymore it's a E7/B(in Cheek to Cheek coming from a half step away F#/A# to a B in the E7/B is exactly what I've been saying all along.The correct transition,a half step.Bb(A#)to B is a half step.You could even play(keep the Bb bass note)a Bb7(sub for E7 coming off the F#/Bb as it has the same tritone as an E7)no root change(making it all A# in the bass).People like Chet and all jazzers use passing bass notes(chord substitutions)all the time(as Chet did with the A# bass to the B bass in Cheek to Cheek).You're thinkin' too much,as this transition has nothing to do with a ii minor implication(simply a 1/2 step progression).The bass note determines the chord.Period.When going from a G chord to an E7 chord you can't(play)imply a B bass on the one count as a ii(it's a 5)'cause E7 has a G sharp(3rd)the ii Bmin7 has an A(b7) in it.If you play the 5 of a chord on the 1 beat it's backwards to me and most of western civilization.The Cheek to Cheek tune is a typical example of half step bass progression.I am not bashing Merle.He had more inate tallent in his pinkie than I have in my whole body.He was not just a great guitar player but a great songwriter and was even in movies and the worlds a lot better place because of Merle Travis.I've enjoyed this discussion as it keeps my old mind a little sharper. God Bless, Ty M.
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Re: Help for beginners

Postby tyguy » Sun Sep 12, 2010 12:50 am

thenorm wrote:They both anchor(ed) their rh pinkie on the pickguard or top when playing..."

Uuuummmm.... sorry, but Chet didn't "anchor" his pinky. He would touch the pickguard or guitar top from time to time but I'd not say he anchord his finger. On his '59 he tended to lightly caress the middle joint of his little finger of his pinky around the tip of his vibrato. His right hand moved quite a bit.

Of course, leave it to the classical players to insist their way is the High Way. I remember for years they had to do Everything just the way Segovia dictiated and now that's loosening up some, thank goodness.

In any case I'm sure the classical guitarists dislike Chet's right (and left) hand technique but he seemed to get a lot of good tone and mileage out of it.
A lot(most))of the classically trained nylon string Chet type players sure know where beat 1 is and swing like dead monkeys.Just because you play the right notes doesn't mean you're making music.Julian Bream and most classical guitarists and Chet nylon players have about as much soul in their playing as a corpse would have.Come on,I want to hear some flak from y'all about this.We'll listen to a recording together and note how many times they play off the beat(swing).Probably never!Standards and most tunes are "supposed to be played" with emoticon and feeling(all music really).I'm so glad I'm alive musically.May you be also. God bless, Ty M.
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Re: Help for beginners

Postby thenorm » Sun Sep 12, 2010 1:29 am

Roger..

Y'know, these forum things lack the communicatabilty of the spoken word and it's easy to misconstrue what someone says or means. I think I got bent by the word "plant" which implies that someone would stick their finger there and Just Not Move It for the whole piece and that wasn't your true meaning at all

If we'da beem in a room talking I think the whole issue would never have come up.

Yer good folk and I apologize for the upset...
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Re: Help for beginners

Postby Roger Hardin » Sun Sep 12, 2010 8:05 am

tyguy wrote:
A lot(most))of the classically trained nylon string Chet type players sure know where beat 1 is and swing like dead monkeys.Just because you play the right notes doesn't mean you're making music.Julian Bream and most classical guitarists and Chet nylon players have about as much soul in their playing as a corpse would have.Come on,I want to hear some flak from y'all about this.We'll listen to a recording together and note how many times they play off the beat(swing).Probably never!Standards and most tunes are "supposed to be played" with emoticon and feeling(all music really).I'm so glad I'm alive musically.May you be also. God bless, Ty M.


I know you are really just trying to entertain and cannot possibly mean if music does not swing it has no soul.

Here are a couple of videos of Julian Bream you might want to watch.

Julian playing Jazz


Julian Plaing with Stephane Grappelli
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Re: Help for beginners

Postby Randy Finney » Sun Sep 12, 2010 10:42 am

Don't give up, Ty, you'll get it eventually. (Relax, I'm just kidding.)

The fun thing about Music Theory is that a particular concept can be explained from many different perspectives. Some people may believe their way of thinking to be superior, but this is never the case when two or more perspectives are ending up on the same notes - as ours are.

The reason I enjoy these discussions is similar to yours. I get to learn other people's - in this case your's - perspectives. I find that taking the time to understand these various perspectives often gives me ideas for my own creative arranging projects. Sometimes it reminds me to avoid thinking like the person to whom I am talking (of course, not in your case, Ty.)

Your latest response has taught me a lot about the way you think. That you consider E7 and E7/B different chords, and that you liken adding passing bass notes to being Chord Substitution, is fascinating to me. I would find this an extremely cumbersome way think, especially when playing Walking Bass Lines! But I will give it a try and see if it sparks some new creative ideas for me.

And, as you say you are also in this to "keep your mind sharp", you may find exploring a little bit about way I learned a fun exercise.

Play a II, V, I in A using just 3rds and 7ths . (For those of you who do not have a theory background, you will be playing the notes A and D for the Bmi7 Chord, G# and D for the E7 Chord, and G# and C# for the AMA7 Chord.)

Now, play a bunch of Bass Line ideas under this but, do not think of your Bass Lines as creating new chords. For example, if you play a Bb Bass on the E7, for this exercise, do not think of it as E7b5/Bb, Bb7, SubV of I, or any other name you may come up with. Just think of it as an E7 Chord and trust "the Bass Player" to do his thing. You may find this gives you different arranging ideas, especially when considering the use of upper extensions to shade the tonal color. You may also find this will free you from thinking of shapes - whether your concept of these shapes is on the fretboard, on the staff, or in your ear.

Finally, at the risk of having to join him exile, I have to agree with Jack Baker. There is no reason to make provocative, small minded comments regarding other players and their interpretation music. It isn't needed to provoke conversation - most people on this board are eager to join the discussions which interest them - nor do you have anything to gain by over selling your personal opinion by making it dependent upon the exclusion of others.

If you are so bored with playing the guitar that you need to make these types of comments in order to have fun, maybe it's time to tackle another instrument?

Randy
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Re: Help for beginners

Postby Billy Anderson » Sun Sep 12, 2010 10:54 am

I think I will award the Flying Fickle Finger of Debate to all posters and continue to play my cheap little Epiphone in my non-classical, pseudo-Chet Atkins style (not pretty but it works for me). I got lost somewhere around the fourth or fifth post but enjoyed the give and take. Let's all just KOP&P in whatever style plucks your strings. Billy
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Re: Help for beginners

Postby tyguy » Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:19 pm

Jack Baker wrote:Ty,
Ya got it all figured out have ya? Telling this board that Classical players like Julian Beam etc. have no soul is a little narrow minded to me. You can God Bless all you want but you really should not be describing what "soul" is...Just how do you measure a person's "soul" without injecting your personal taste as to your "standard" for what "soul" is...just overwhelmed by your lack of knowing what music is about and arrogance. Many people have said that Chet had no "soul" and they were just as wrongheaded and narrow as you seem to be--I'll probably get kicked off for this but I'll chance it..Jack Baker NYC p.s. I know yer just kiddin', right? :-) j.
I was just trying to show that non nylon string players can be just as arrogant as the classical guys and with good reason. That's all!All music is soul music as it's not any good if it doesn't come from the SOUL of the individual playing it(that should be conveyed to the listener).I don't listen to music that sounds like a beginning sightreader is playing it.I don't care how many parts they're playing at one time or if they're standing on their head while playing(quite a few here and on You Tube).Most Classical music is played as written.A lot of other kinds of music "is not" and sounds horrible when played as written.Chet had as much soul and feeling as anyone who ever played and He conveyed it in his playing( I thank him everyday for my taste and tone).A lot of others,particularly converted classical Chet players do not convey this.Just my humble opine,which means nothing to most people but will to some. P.S. Segovia got it and played with emotion.One of the few. God Bless, Ty M.
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Re: Help for beginners

Postby tyguy » Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:28 pm

Randy Finney wrote:Don't give up, Ty, you'll get it eventually. (Relax, I'm just kidding.)

The fun thing about Music Theory is that a particular concept can be explained from many different perspectives. Some people may believe their way of thinking to be superior, but this is never the case when two or more perspectives are ending up on the same notes - as ours are.

The reason I enjoy these discussions is similar to yours. I get to learn other people's - in this case your's - perspectives. I find that taking the time to understand these various perspectives often gives me ideas for my own creative arranging projects. Sometimes it reminds me to avoid thinking like the person to whom I am talking (of course, not in your case, Ty.)

Your latest response has taught me a lot about the way you think. That you consider E7 and E7/B different chords, and that you liken adding passing bass notes to being Chord Substitution, is fascinating to me. I would find this an extremely cumbersome way think, especially when playing Walking Bass Lines! But I will give it a try and see if it sparks some new creative ideas for me.

And, as you say you are also in this to "keep your mind sharp", you may find exploring a little bit about way I learned a fun exercise.

Play a II, V, I in A using just 3rds and 7ths . (For those of you who do not have a theory background, you will be playing the notes A and D for the Bmi7 Chord, G# and D for the E7 Chord, and G# and C# for the AMA7 Chord.)

Now, play a bunch of Bass Line ideas under this but, do not think of your Bass Lines as creating new chords. For example, if you play a Bb Bass on the E7, for this exercise, do not think of it as E7b5/Bb, Bb7, SubV of I, or any other name you may come up with. Just think of it as an E7 Chord and trust "the Bass Player" to do his thing. You may find this gives you different arranging ideas, especially when considering the use of upper extensions to shade the tonal color. You may also find this will free you from thinking of shapes - whether your concept of these shapes is on the fretboard, on the staff, or in your ear.

Finally, at the risk of having to join him exile, I have to agree with Jack Baker. There is no reason to make provocative, small minded comments regarding other players and their interpretation music. It isn't needed to provoke conversation - most people on this board are eager to join the discussions which interest them - nor do you have anything to gain by over selling your personal opinion by making it dependent upon the exclusion of others.

If you are so bored with playing the guitar that you need to make these types of comments in order to have fun, maybe it's time to tackle another instrument?

Randy
Sorry,music theory is absolute.There's only one way to explain what's going on."It is what it is"!I thought this was a good discussion as it woke up the Chetboard. God bless Ty M.
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Re: Help for beginners

Postby tyguy » Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:34 pm

Roger Hardin wrote:
tyguy wrote:
A lot(most))of the classically trained nylon string Chet type players sure know where beat 1 is and swing like dead monkeys.Just because you play the right notes doesn't mean you're making music.Julian Bream and most classical guitarists and Chet nylon players have about as much soul in their playing as a corpse would have.Come on,I want to hear some flak from y'all about this.We'll listen to a recording together and note how many times they play off the beat(swing).Probably never!Standards and most tunes are "supposed to be played" with emoticon and feeling(all music really).I'm so glad I'm alive musically.May you be also. God bless, Ty M.


I know you are really just trying to entertain and cannot possibly mean if music does not swing it has no soul.

Here are a couple of videos of Julian Bream you might want to watch. Django was one of the best jazz guitarists who ever lived but if you know any"history of his band" you will note that it was a straight ahead 4 beat and didn't swing at all!These videos are boring drivel to me. Just MY,MEANS NOTHING HUMBLE OPINE.

Julian playing Jazz


Julian Plaing with Stephane Grappelli
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