Fender Amp Decision....Torn between 2

[rod_locker]

Fell in love with the '65 Deluxe Reverb which was set up at the Chet display at CAAS this past year. Just wondering if there was a major tone differance between the '65 Twin Reverb and the '65 Deluxe reverb? Which do ya'll prefer?

[Roger Pratt]

I bought the 65 Deluxe Reverb Reissue and it is the best amp I've ever owned. I love the way it makes my Gretsch NC sound. I haven't heard the Twin yet.

[LMark]

They both have "that Fender sound," coming out of the preamp stage, but the Twin has a 6L6 output stage and the Deluxe has a 6V6 output stage. The tone is significantly different because the pentode (6L6) and triode (6V6) output stages emphasize different orders of harmonics. Also, the Twin has a LOT more power, and may sound really sterile until you turn it up loud, compared to the Deluxe.

That said, I had a 15" Twin RI (essentially same as an old Vibra/Vibrosonic) for a while, and I liked it with the L5 style guitars and single-coil pups, but I did not like it much with the thin line and humbucker combo. I think that the Deluxe sounds outstanding with just about any electric guitar/pup combo.

But I play strictly Chet and Merle on the electric. You didn't tell us what you play.

Play the Twin if possible and decide for yourself, but you cannot substitute one for the other. LMark

[Brian Ingram]

They both have "that Fender sound," coming out of the preamp stage, but the Twin has a 6L6 output stage and the Deluxe has a 6V6 output stage. The tone is significantly different because the pentode (6L6) and triode (6V6) output stages emphasize different orders of harmonics. Also, the Twin has a LOT more power, and may sound really sterile until you turn it up loud, compared to the Deluxe.

I agree with everything you said, except that the 6V6 is a beam power tube, same as the 6L6 (a beam power tube is functionally the same as a pentode, but true pentodes, such as the EL34 and EL84 have a different response). But the Twin uses four 6L6's, compared to the Deluxe's pair of 6V6's. As you said, the Twin is very much more power, and will be dead clean up to high stage volume.

The Deluxe is still a loud amp, but can be pushed until it's a bit hairy at living room volumes.

At east with the Deluxe, you won't need a dolly (or casters on the cabinet) to move it around.

[LMark]

Thanks Brian. My mistake. Duh. I even built an Allen amp that takes either 6V6 or 6L6 tubes. Not thinking . . . .

I had a Carr Rambler for a while that had a pentode/triode switch. I loved it in triode but hated it in pentode.

LMark

[Brian Ingram]

No problem... Triode mode has an interesting sound and lower volume. I won't bore folks here with the electronics details, but the biggest part of the difference in triode mode is lower distortion, which leads to a sonic impression of a "darker" sound.

[rgervais]

Thanks Brian. My mistake. Duh. I even built an Allen amp that takes either 6V6 or 6L6 tubes. Not thinking . . . .
LMark

Which Allen amp did you build? I bought an Allen Sweet Spot last year that has the same option to use 6V6 or 6L6 tubes, I like the amp a lot but the Eminence Swamp Thang 12" speaker I ordered it with does not have the brightness or chime I was hoping for with my NC. It sounds rather dark and dull. What do you have in yours? Do you or anyone else have ideas for an alternate speaker? I also have an early 70s silver face Twin Reverb that sounds great but is so heavy it is parked in the basement and rarely gets used anymore. I guess my ear is looking for more of the tone of the Twin Reverb that I am used to.

Roger

[LMark]

Well, Roger, I (and son Matthew) built the Allen Accomplice, 40w. Originally I had put an eminence commonwealth 15 in there, which was good. Then I picked up a JBL 130 locally, which made it even better.

I'll give you my opinions, but they're just opinions, and--ha ha--we've already hijacked this thread!

I think that the "Sweet Spot" is supposed to be like a Fender Princeton, which came with a Jensen C10R (or an Oxford 10")--but you have opted for the 12 inch speaker. There are so many speakers out there today that I can hardly begin to know what to say. You may not want to begin with the speaker at all; maybe. And I am not all that familiar with the Princeton preamp circuit (AA763) which, I think, is one generation prior to the Deluxe/Twin circuit (AB763). Someone with more knowledge will chime in and provide more detail, perhaps. Then, we don't know just what all Allen has changed, but I notice that the Sweet Spot has a MID control. The Princeton will not sound just like either a Deluxe or Twin; we know that. And we know you won't sound quite as close to Chet without a Standel (or good clone). And we know that nobody will sound like Chet no matter what. There, got that out of the way . . . .

I would suggest three things (forgive the details). I dont know how much you already know, so I apologize in advance if this is Amps 101 all over again.

(1) Fiddle with the guitar and amp some more, as is. I don't have an NC, but that might be the best archtop in the world. It has super pups. The Princeton is a very nice amp. People who play big jazz boxes even like them. Try this:

In this method, you start out with a fairly dark sound, but Chet played dark, which allowed him to attack the trebles without tearing out your eardrums. You have a three knob EQ and a (non-master?) Volume. I'd set that VOL to 3-4, I suppose. Be certain that "raw" is off. Bright switch? Try both positions. Turn your bass and treble to zero. Turn the MID all the way up. That's counter-intuitive, but just try it. On the guitar, select the bridge pup only, turn your vols to max then back off a hair. Play some nice full nine-chords while you play with the tone control on the guitar until you get the most "pleasing" sound possible--given that you have the amp in an "oddball" setting. Now adjust the TREB and BASS little-by-little to improve that essential tone, then back off the MID if it's still too much. You will probably have to adjust the amp VOL too, as it gets louder. Now see how rhythm pup sounds; the both. Help any?

(2) Play with bias and different tubes. Tubes can get expensive; that's the downside. If you're not playing loud, try biasing a little on the hot side. Dave Allen can help you with that aspect of the game; just give him a call. If you want the best output tone, I think you should try RCA 6V6GTs ('50s) and Sylvania 6L6GCs (late 60's), if you can find/afford them. Yes, that will make a huge difference.

Preamp? I think that Dave Allen ships the Electro-Harmonix 12AX7EH's with those amps. They tend to be a bit mellow for my taste. Try an RCA 12AT7 in the phase inverter. That should not be too expensive. The other preamp position, and the one that actually that has the greatest effect on tone, is V1 (furthest from the output tubes). I would try an old GE12AX7A there or a vintage 7025 if you can find/afford one. Buy from a reputable dealer who sells lots of tubes and tests all of them. Some of the new production preamp tubes are not too bad, though they are shorter-lived. I would suggest the Sovtek 12AX7WC (NOT their WA or WB; YUK!), or even the Chinese (yes, I said it) Shuguang 12AX7B or 12AX7C. (Some call this the 9th generation Chinese version.) They have a lot of gain and are clear/generic sounding. You can get them on ebay cheap. They are so cheap, in fact, that you might just try replacing all the preamp tubes with these, to see if it opens the amp up. I had a Rivera that just did not sound right, compared to others I had heard. I discovered that the Sovtek tubes in it were half-dead, replaced them all with new cheap chinese tubes, and it opened up right away--like a completely different amp. All this might sound pedantic, but I think that it makes a perceptible difference in tone.

(3) Try another speaker. I think that I would try a reissue Jensen C12N (or an original), as that's the closest thing to the original setup. I don't think that they are very expensive. Else, if you can find one in good shape, I don't see how you could go wrong with a JBL D120. But you pay a premium for JBL these days. Ted Weber also makes nice speakers based on the vintage models; Google ted weber speakers. As I said, however, today's speaker choices are so varied that I suppose you could spend a lifetime testing them all. And you want to PLAY the guitar; not fiddle with all this stuff the rest of your life . . . .

FWIW, LMark

[rgervais]

Thank you, LMark, for the detailed reply. You have given me a lot to think about. I had not thought about the mid control idea. Allen's documentation basically recommends going very easy on the mid control, so I have not really played around with it much. I will start with the simple fixes and see what happens. Many thanks again for taking the time to reply.

Roger