Gibson Woes With Feds

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Gibson Woes With Feds

Postby dgallent » Sun Jan 09, 2011 4:53 pm ... ndictments

Looks like big trouble for someone....
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Re: Gibson Woes With Feds

Postby RonBloor » Sun Jan 09, 2011 9:44 pm

Just what we need. The federal government prosecuting an American company to put yet another nail in the coffin of American manufacturing!!
However, I guess this is getting political and that isn't what this forum is about... Sorry .. Nuff said.
Ron Bloor
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Re: Gibson Woes With Feds

Postby thenorm » Mon Jan 10, 2011 12:08 am

It ain't 'politics' unless you want it to be.

This is more like alleged corporate malpractice.

Ebony and rosewood are illegal to buy or sell in certain circumstances. Some countries,. like Brazil, strictly control exports. Gibson's defense (and it might be valid) would be to claim (and prove) that they were not aware that the wood came from an illegal source.

Unavailbility of certain kinds of wood does not prevent Gibson (or any other manufacturer) from manufactuing guitars. Ebony and rosewood, while beautiful woods, are not required to make instruments.

They have to be like the USMC ... adapt, improvise, overcome. And do it in a legal fashion. Why should they be exempt just because they make guitars?
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Re: Gibson Woes With Feds

Postby jay » Mon Jan 10, 2011 12:34 am

I would hope that my tax dollars might go to a little better use than prosecuting some company for using wood from a tree that someone, somewhere, had the wherewithall to declare improper. I wonder what % of Americans (tax paying) actually care about this. Next it will be Louisville Slugger's. There are so many more areas the Justice dept could focus its' resources that might provide "justice" for something more deserving than a know, like crimes against people.

Illegal wood prosecution...we have met the enemy...
jay kantor
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Re: Gibson Woes With Feds

Postby thenorm » Mon Jan 10, 2011 3:32 am

Firstly, it's the Fish and Wildlife Agency so I guess trees come under that heading.
Secondly. Louisville Sluggers aren't made of exotic imported wood like ebony and rosewood. I think they're made of hicory or ash, both grown here in America.

Ya can't have laws only apply to people or companies you don't like and not apply to companies you like. Ilegal is illegal

"...I wonder what % of Americans (tax paying) actually care about this..." Only the guitarists.
And the countries that are reputedly getting clear cut by lumber exporters. Of course they aren't American taxpayers so...

Seeing as how Martin uses ebony and rosewood either Fish and Wildlife hasn't audited their stock or they do a better job of sourcing thier wood.

In any case, we all wish Gibson wasn't in this fix. It's emabarassing and expensive for all concerned.

There will be no minds changed on a forum
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Re: Gibson Woes With Feds

Postby Eddie Estes » Sat Jan 15, 2011 2:22 pm

It is no secret that I am no big fan of Gibson anymore.
But here in the economy as bad as it is and the government is going
after an American company because somebody cut down a TREE!

Seems like they might have bigger fish to fry with $3 gasoline etc.....

No wonder all our companies are going overseas!
Eddie Estes
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Re: Gibson Woes With Feds

Postby bill_h » Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:47 am

Seems to me like the fish and wildlife gestapo is over playing their hands. I don't see how Gibson is posing a threat to any fish and wildlife. We have too many unelected government officials and government agencies with powers that exceed the constitution. The only thing missing from all this is the swastika!!!
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Re: Gibson Woes With Feds

Postby thenorm » Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:54 am

Let's see...

1. Ebony and rosewood are kinda like a cash crop in areas where it can be found. It takes too long for a tree to get to the size that is marketable so it's not really a "crop" that is being farmed. But it sells high to those who find it and cut it and sell it. It cannot be grown in this country and the countries it can be grown in have tried to linit the greed based export of these woods. It has come to the point that ebony and rosewood is getting depleted. Guitar manufacture has become big business worldwide.

2. Gibson is not like John D'Angelico. Gibson makes a LOT of guitars and uses a LOT of ebony and rosewood. Ebony and rosewood are imports, subject to duties and taxes and some products are supposed to be controlled by international agreement. If the F&W indictment is valid it would mean that Gibson violated law to get their woods. And knowing how corporations work I doubt in was for the "noble cause" of bullding instruments for non professional musicians (who buy most of Gibson's output). The indictment would indicate the wood was bought on the black market. To save a buck. For Henry J and the board members.

3. Some people look at their guitar fingerboard and say, "Well hail, that little bitty strip of fingerboard aint' all that much wood" and feel that corproations (who, again, are not like small business artisians like John D'Angelico) like Gibson should not have to be scrutinized as to where they get their materials.

4. Some government agencies are in place because, left to their own devices people cheat. They go around The Law. And corporations are really good at this. This ain't about "guitars". Gibson is not a "small business". It's about MONEY, the corporate bottom line. Obviously, if the indictment is correct, Gibson felt that it did not need to obey the law (if it could get away with it).

5. So the agencies are deemed fascist and exceeding constitutional powers (please, by the way, cite which article of the constitution is being violated, I'd like to know). And wood imports fell under the jurisdiction of F&W
Remember, folks. If you look carefully at most of those hated regulations the government puts in place it is not "to kill jobs' but to make it harder for the corporate crooks to rob you blind.
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Re: Gibson Woes With Feds

Postby Tom Keller » Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:55 am

I agree with Norm. There has been IMHO way to much looking the other way where corporate malfeasance is concerned. So whether its BP petroleum or Gibson guitar I say hold them accountable. As far as I can understand all this corporate welfare and hand holding has not produced many if any jobs in the past 10 years nor is it likely to.

Tom Keller
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Re: Gibson Woes With Feds

Postby thenorm » Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:26 pm ... ily19.html

This is an article related to the issue.

IF Gibson can show (and it may well be able to do so) that they were defrauded by their supplier then they're off the hook.

Let's wait and see what develops. We are all too far from the action to really make any kind of hard statement as to what did and what did not happen.

The agency is not asking f0r Gibson to be shut down. Read. The Article.
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