Calling It Quits (Kinda)

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Re: Calling It Quits (Kinda)

Postby keener » Sat Oct 22, 2011 3:11 pm

Bill,

Thank you very much for your kind words, and for your insights regarding "the problem of free."

Your example of why concerts cost so much really hits at the root of the problem: it's not so much that there are free things that compete with non-free ones, it's that we seem to have lost all sense of proportion. Unskilled workers often get paid more than teachers, and in many cases have better pensions and benefits.

In an email to me, another artist hit at another big part of why many musicians are having a hard time: there are lots and lots of things competing for people's attention these days ... not just music versus music, but music versus online games, versus Xbox, versus Netflix, versus texting, versus Facebook and Twitter, and on and on. People can only spend so much attention, and a larger share of it is now spent in the non-music areas.

Anyway, thanks for chiming in. I always appreciate hearing from you.

Bruce
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Re: Calling It Quits (Kinda)

Postby bill_h » Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:35 pm

Bruce, good point about how people have lots of new electronic gadgets to pass time with these days. The days are long gone when people couldn't wait to get their farm chores done on Saturday afternoon so they could tune in to the Opry broadcast on AM radio.

On the other hand It seems like more and more I hear of guys in their late teens or early 20's or so learning to play guitar online from whatever "tutorials" they were able to scrounge. Since these "tutorials" are not gonna get them too far as players I can't help but wonder how many of them are gonna reach a point where they're willing to pay for instructional material that they feel really will get them to the next level.

I don't see how all these younger people learning to play is gonna take any money put of Richard Smith's pocket. I don't know that they've put any money in his pocket but I don't see how it hurts that there are people like Bruce Keener putting these good videos of guitar music on you tube. How do we know some of them won't get directed to Richard's music from the side bar after watching a Bruce Keener video?

Another case in point; I know a progressive rocker who somehow stumbled upon Lenny Breau on you tube. As a result, he's expressed interest in going to a John Knowles workshop with me sometime since John was influenced by Lenny. Without that free videoclip of Lenny it most likely would never occur to him to attend a John Knowles Workshop. ( Of course he was blown away by Lenny. )

Glad you decided to keep posting Bruce. I think you summed it up nicely a few posts back when you said in so many words that the new technology is here and we're either gonna have to adapt to it or get left behind.
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Re: Calling It Quits (Kinda)

Postby Mike Nye » Tue Oct 25, 2011 12:54 am

bill_h wrote:Bruce, good point about how people have lots of new electronic gadgets to pass time with these days. The days are long gone when people couldn't wait to get their farm chores done on Saturday afternoon so they could tune in to the Opry broadcast on AM radio.

On the other hand It seems like more and more I hear of guys in their late teens or early 20's or so learning to play guitar online from whatever "tutorials" they were able to scrounge. Since these "tutorials" are not gonna get them too far as players I can't help but wonder how many of them are gonna reach a point where they're willing to pay for instructional material that they feel really will get them to the next level.

I don't see how all these younger people learning to play is gonna take any money put of Richard Smith's pocket. I don't know that they've put any money in his pocket but I don't see how it hurts that there are people like Bruce Keener putting these good videos of guitar music on you tube. How do we know some of them won't get directed to Richard's music from the side bar after watching a Bruce Keener video?

Another case in point; I know a progressive rocker who somehow stumbled upon Lenny Breau on you tube. As a result, he's expressed interest in going to a John Knowles workshop with me sometime since John was influenced by Lenny. Without that free videoclip of Lenny it most likely would never occur to him to attend a John Knowles Workshop. ( Of course he was blown away by Lenny. )

Glad you decided to keep posting Bruce. I think you summed it up nicely a few posts back when you said in so many words that the new technology is here and we're either gonna have to adapt to it or get left behind.


They're sayin' that broadcast AM/FM will be done in 10-years, to be replaced by WIFI Internet/Satellite Radio as will TV . . .

They're predicting that ALL medias (including newspapers) will be married to each other via DO-ALL Media Players such as Windows Media Player, iTunes & Real Player among others . . .

Libraries as we now know them will no longer exist in 15-years. You'll access libraries via the Internet to download books like Amazon Kindle . . .

And when Gigabit Technology becomes a reality, you'll be able to ALL of the above SIMULTANEOUSLY with ZERO UNDERBUFFERING and wirelessly to boot ! ! !

Also, say Goodbye to movie theaters, as you'll be able to download a 2-hour movie in about 10-seconds ! ! !
If BRUTE-FORCE isn't working, you're just not applying enough of it ! ! !
Mike Nye
 
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Re: Calling It Quits (Kinda)

Postby keener » Tue Oct 25, 2011 1:28 pm

Bill and Mike,

Both of you made really good points. Mike, you have clearly driven home the point that this is just beginning. Already, for $79 per year, I can stream movies 24 hours a day from Amazon to my iPad (I could stream to my TV if I weren't too cheap to upgrade to an HD TV).

Earlier today, one of the news networks had a "communications expert" talking about how President Obama has set up a Tumblr account, meaning that he now has accounts on all the social media outlets. He discussed how important social media (Facebook, Twitter especially) was to Obama's election in 2008 and that it will be even more important for the 2012 elections, because 65% of adults now use social media regularly (versus about 29% in 2008). He concluded by saying that "he with the most links wins."

Of course, you have to use the social media in a way that scores some home runs: it's not just enough to talk a lot, you have to connect with what people want a good bit of the time. Then the links start coming and the popularity grows. Of course it helps to already be popular, but, regardless, you do have to be skilled in using social media. It's so easy to go into an overexposure mode, for example. For instance, I've found that if I put 3 tunes at once on this Board, that the first will get a good bit of views, the second much less, and the third almost none. And, if I put up a single tune a few days later, still very few hits. That's a result of overexposure, a lesson I've learned (slowly) from fooling around informally with social media. (I see the same phenomena on Facebook, and it seems to be a universal principle ... I'm not the only that goes into overexposure mode at times, and not the only one who "pays for it" with decreased public interest).

Pro musicians who are getting into social media to promote their work would do well to find some good books on how to manage "their brands" (as the social media experts would say) ... if there are any good books on the subject. Right now it seems like everyone with a blog markets themselves as a social media expert.

Anyway, Mike and Bill, you guys (and others who have chimed in) have made really good points ... I just wanted to emphasize that a musician can't just expect to put up 30 YouTubes and expect it to work wonders for him/her. I also wanted to re-emphasize your point, Mike, that "you ain't seen nothing yet."

All my best
Bruce

P.S. By the way, and this gets to Bill's point, a key reason I decided to stop worrying about my videos is that I realize that I have essentially zero popularity (talking big picture, not just this Board) and will have pretty much the same popularity when I die. I don't know how to promote myself ... never have, never will. So, it became clear to me that I am not responsible for any decline in any musicians' income ... heck, like Bill said, every once in a while when someone watches a video of mine that may generate enough interest for them to look for real tutorials from real artists.
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Re: Calling It Quits (Kinda)

Postby Mike Nye » Tue Oct 25, 2011 1:44 pm

keener wrote:Bill and Mike,

Both of you made really good points. Mike, you have clearly driven home the point that this is just beginning. Already, for $79 per year, I can stream movies 24 hours a day from Amazon to my iPad (I could stream to my TV if I weren't too cheap to upgrade to an HD TV).

Earlier today, one of the news networks had a "communications expert" talking about how President Obama has set up a Tumblr account, meaning that he now has accounts on all the social media outlets. He discussed how important social media (Facebook, Twitter especially) was to Obama's election in 2008 and that it will be even more important for the 2012 elections, because 65% of adults now use social media regularly (versus about 29% in 2008). He concluded by saying that "he with the most links wins."

Of course, you have to use the social media in a way that scores some home runs: it's not just enough to talk a lot, you have to connect with what people want a good bit of the time. Then the links start coming and the popularity grows. Of course it helps to already be popular, but, regardless, you do have to be skilled in using social media. It's so easy to go into an overexposure mode, for example. For instance, I've found that if I put 3 tunes at once on this Board, that the first will get a good bit of views, the second much less, and the third almost none. And, if I put up a single tune a few days later, still very few hits. That's a result of overexposure, a lesson I've learned (slowly) from fooling around informally with social media. (I see the same phenomena on Facebook, and it seems to be a universal principle ... I'm not the only that goes into overexposure mode at times, and not the only one who "pays for it" with decreased public interest).

Pro musicians who are getting into social media to promote their work would do well to find some good books on how to manage "their brands" (as the social media experts would say) ... if there are any good books on the subject. Right now it seems like everyone with a blog markets themselves as a social media expert.

Anyway, Mike and Bill, you guys (and others who have chimed in) have made really good points ... I just wanted to emphasize that a musician can't just expect to put up 30 YouTubes and expect it to work wonders for him/her.

All my best
Bruce


Well, I wouldn't touch Facebook, Myspace, Twitter or ANY OTHER Social Networking site with a 10-foot pole as I VALUE MY PRIVACY too much to be an OPEN BOOK for ANYONE to pry into MY BUSINESS ! ! !

FOOD 4 THOUGHT ! ! !
If BRUTE-FORCE isn't working, you're just not applying enough of it ! ! !
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Re: Calling It Quits (Kinda)

Postby bill_h » Wed Oct 26, 2011 6:13 pm

Good point Bruce about "overexposure." I have a webcam and plan to start posting soon but I'll be sure to pace myself. If I was to post my 1st and 2nd best efforts simultaneously it may look like no one cared for the 2nd posting because they were posted at the same time. ( Or I may just get virtually egged anyway :lol: )

The new technology is changing the way we access music and such for sure but I still don't believe we know exactly how things will evolve over the next 10-15 years or so. It was predicted in the mid 90's that within 10-15 years we would be dowloading cds directly from our home computers as well as the little booklet thing that goes in the case. That may very well have came to pass without the advent of mp3's, you tube, and real player. Does anyone really know what's next?
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Re: Calling It Quits (Kinda)

Postby Mike Nye » Wed Oct 26, 2011 6:36 pm

bill_h wrote:Good point Bruce about "overexposure." I have a webcam and plan to start posting soon but I'll be sure to pace myself. If I was to post my 1st and 2nd best efforts simultaneously it may look like no one cared for the 2nd posting because they were posted at the same time. ( Or I may just get virtually egged anyway :lol: )

The new technology is changing the way we access music and such for sure but I still don't believe we know exactly how things will evolve over the next 10-15 years or so. It was predicted in the mid 90's that within 10-15 years we would be dowloading cds directly from our home computers as well as the little booklet thing that goes in the case. That may very well have came to pass without the advent of mp3's, you tube, and real player. Does anyone really know what's next?


Well, If you read my post from a few days ago, it pretty much explains WHAT'S NEXT . . .

Brick & Mortar Retail is going the way of the dinosaur. YES, there will always be 'Gotta Have It NOW' walk-in retailers, but online pricing from vendors like buy.com, amazon.com, os.com & newegg.com will be 'The Norm' -especially with FREE SHIPPING on things like HD TVs and other BIG TICKET items . . .

I haven't bought a CD in years. I've been converting my vinyl library to MP3 files that I can play on ALL of my devices from my home system to my cell phone's MP3 player.

When you buy a CD, it's ONE CD, when you BUY & download music and/or video YOU OWN IT, and you can load it onto ANY DEVICE that's legally registered to YOU . . .

Like I said before, your paperboy will end up buried next to the TV repairman, as newsprint will be replaced by Kindle and other digital devices ~ ~ ~

It's THE WORLD we live in . . .
If BRUTE-FORCE isn't working, you're just not applying enough of it ! ! !
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Re: Calling It Quits (Kinda)

Postby keener » Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:40 pm

Bill,

I wouldn't worry about 2 tunes being an overexposure. Overexposure is hard to define, as it involves not only numbers but frequency (and probably other factors) as well.

Part of it is that people have so much to divide their attention amongst. I know that I personally will watch maybe two videos (max) before I'm ready to move on to another web page ... generally just one video at a time is all I do in my personal browsing, and I suspect I'm fairly representative.

My personal music purchases of today probably sum this whole thing up: I decided to buy some Christmas guitar music, so I downloaded Craig Dobbins' Christmas music (thank you Craig for the great tunes), and then I had in mind that I would download another popular artist's Christmas music, but it appears that it is available only in LP format. I haven't bought an LP in over 20 years. I really don't even like to fool with CD's and DVD's, preferring downloads, but will settle for them when downloading is not an option. And I'm 62. Imagine the purchasing situation for younger folk: they probably either download or use one of the popular streaming services, and probably buy a CD/DVD only in very rate situations. Many have probably never bought an LP and probably never will.

Everything is moving to the Cloud.
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Re: Calling It Quits (Kinda)

Postby Mike Nye » Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:48 pm

Just about EVERY place that sold CDs and/or vinyl within 30-miles of me bought da farm within the last 2-years . . .

WHY pay $20-$30 for a CD that has 12 songs where you ONLY like TWO of 'em, when you can go to iTunes and download ONLY the songs you like for 99-cents each and load them onto ALL your devices ? ? ?
If BRUTE-FORCE isn't working, you're just not applying enough of it ! ! !
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Re: Calling It Quits (Kinda)

Postby stambi » Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:08 am

keener wrote:Bill,

I wouldn't worry about 2 tunes being an overexposure. Overexposure is hard to define, as it involves not only numbers but frequency (and probably other factors) as well.

Part of it is that people have so much to divide their attention amongst. I know that I personally will watch maybe two videos (max) before I'm ready to move on to another web page ... generally just one video at a time is all I do in my personal browsing, and I suspect I'm fairly representative.

My personal music purchases of today probably sum this whole thing up: I decided to buy some Christmas guitar music, so I downloaded Craig Dobbins' Christmas music (thank you Craig for the great tunes), and then I had in mind that I would download another popular artist's Christmas music, but it appears that it is available only in LP format. I haven't bought an LP in over 20 years. I really don't even like to fool with CD's and DVD's, preferring downloads, but will settle for them when downloading is not an option. And I'm 62. Imagine the purchasing situation for younger folk: they probably either download or use one of the popular streaming services, and probably buy a CD/DVD only in very rate situations. Many have probably never bought an LP and probably never will.

Everything is moving to the Cloud.


Yes, young folks will never bought an LP. And they will never have a feeling of taking an LP into hands and putting it onto gramophone. LP Paper covers are always full of information and you can normally read it. For reading informations in CD booklets you must have microscope. As Mike said, with downloading music we can choose what we really want to buy and that's very important. But, with all this benefits of downloading, tiny electronical devices, smartphones etc., it seems to me that this world slowly goes backwards.
Boris Stambuk
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